Miraculous Gifts
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Poster:
Logan
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2007/05/28 12:54:14 PM
I was writing to a friend recently and we had a discussion on the topic of tongues and prophecies mainly. I wrote up my statement and position but I was curious as to what others had to say on the topic. While I feel my position is certainly tenable and Scriptural, perhaps someone else can bring something to the discussion that will help or correct my own thinking. Some questions to open with:
What were these gifts originally used for?
To whom were they given?
Are they necessary today?
Do we have evidence (Scripturally) that they continue, or cease?
Do people possess these spiritual gifts today?
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As we learned in Narnia....
What were these gifts originally used for?
To whom were they given?
Are they necessary today?
Do we have evidence (Scripturally) that they continue, or cease?
Do people possess these spiritual gifts today?
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As we learned in Narnia....
Poster:
LES
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2007/05/28 16:34:04 PM
I have learned to tread gently, this will require thought as it should but I do believe that people have spiritual gifts today.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
Poster:
Logan
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2007/05/28 18:52:46 PM
Okay, that's a start for conversation! And why are these gifts given and used if that's the case? I'm just trying to generate some food for thought, for myself if for no one else :)
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As we learned in Narnia....
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As we learned in Narnia....
Poster:
LES
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2007/05/28 21:56:04 PM
OK -- I have some time now, I am not completely sure what you are talking about Logan -- Are you talking about speaking in tongues like they do in the Pentecostal Church and then someone interprets it ? I have not believed that to be true when I have seen it.
Let's start over and let me be sure I know what you are talking about -- I thought I did and then I was not so sure.
As always your ability to present something is far beyond mine.
Your question did direct my Bible reading today to 1st Corinthians 12 today. I am still not sure how to answer your question though.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
Let's start over and let me be sure I know what you are talking about -- I thought I did and then I was not so sure.
As always your ability to present something is far beyond mine.
Your question did direct my Bible reading today to 1st Corinthians 12 today. I am still not sure how to answer your question though.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
Poster:
Logan
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2007/05/28 22:17:57 PM
Well yes, basically I'm talking about miraculous gifts (a poor term perhaps since really, any spiritual gift is "miraculous" because God gives it) but in particular, the gift of prophecy and speaking in tongues had come up with this man I was speaking with. Gift of healing would be included in the category. My main question is, are there any who have these gifts today or were they for a specific period of the church?
My own conviction was that they were for authenticating and propagating the gospel before the canon of Scripture was completed. They were necessary to help explain and teach, but now that we have the full Scripture, it is no longer needful. In fact, if I heard that someone in town said they received a special revelation from God, I just wouldn't feel the need to go and hear him speak because first of all, I believe God has given us everything we need and second, there are many liars in the world and we are warned to be cautious of them.
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As we learned in Narnia....
My own conviction was that they were for authenticating and propagating the gospel before the canon of Scripture was completed. They were necessary to help explain and teach, but now that we have the full Scripture, it is no longer needful. In fact, if I heard that someone in town said they received a special revelation from God, I just wouldn't feel the need to go and hear him speak because first of all, I believe God has given us everything we need and second, there are many liars in the world and we are warned to be cautious of them.
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As we learned in Narnia....
Poster:
LES
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2007/05/28 23:36:45 PM
OK -- now I understand I do agree with you -- when I first read your question I thought of a sermon that we heard recently talking about people with -- I guess talents -- like mercy. The kind of things that let them be especially good for certain jobs in the church. I do believe we are all given that kind of gifts.
As always you have caused me to think and read -- it has been discussed between HR and myself as well.
I think that there are many liars and yes we should be cautious. Lately it seems there is so much ill will
toward Christians.
Thank you for causing me to study and consider today.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
As always you have caused me to think and read -- it has been discussed between HR and myself as well.
I think that there are many liars and yes we should be cautious. Lately it seems there is so much ill will
toward Christians.
Thank you for causing me to study and consider today.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
Poster:
LES
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2007/05/29 10:41:00 AM
As usual you have me mulling things over Logan. I have to add that I do believe that the Lord is still working miracles and he can heal or anything else he wants to do. OK that is not put the way you could or would say something but I might as well finish, I believe that there is more to know about the Lord than what is in the Bible, I believe it is all we need to know and is sufficient but that it is not all there is to know about the Lord.
OK I am hiding now, I am probably in trouble again -- but HR and I have had a miracle in our lives and I do know that the Lord is at work in our lives. I believe others have received miracles as well.
I remember past discussions here ( when I was always in trouble ) and I know how you feel. I believe I said that if I was not involved or had first hand knowledge I just do not judge. I leave that between the person and the Lord.
You see I accept and know first hand that you are brilliant and very scholarly -- so as I said I am leery and so I tread gently. By in the church -- I took that literally and t.v. faith healers came to mind.
Now I am going to go sit quietly in my chair and try not to get into any more trouble.
I do always value what you have to share Logan, and I am very glad that you are back.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
OK I am hiding now, I am probably in trouble again -- but HR and I have had a miracle in our lives and I do know that the Lord is at work in our lives. I believe others have received miracles as well.
I remember past discussions here ( when I was always in trouble ) and I know how you feel. I believe I said that if I was not involved or had first hand knowledge I just do not judge. I leave that between the person and the Lord.
You see I accept and know first hand that you are brilliant and very scholarly -- so as I said I am leery and so I tread gently. By in the church -- I took that literally and t.v. faith healers came to mind.
Now I am going to go sit quietly in my chair and try not to get into any more trouble.
I do always value what you have to share Logan, and I am very glad that you are back.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
Poster:
Jonah
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2007/05/29 11:01:38 AM
I have left a little reply at the following link.
http://www.w-o-n.org/wonforum/viewtopic.php?t=1302
http://www.w-o-n.org/wonforum/viewtopic.php?t=1302
Poster:
Logan
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2007/05/29 12:03:26 PM
That's why I was concerned when I said "miraculous" gifts LES, because in reality, anything that God gives us is no less miraculous than another. He upholds all things by His hand and what we see as miraculous is just Him using "less means" than usual, though everything He wills is still accomplished.
No, I also believe that God has revealed Himself in nature and has given us friendships to help us grow, what I'm talking about is actual verbal revelation. A "thus says the Lord," a command for the future. If a minister were to come to town with a good sermon, certainly I would go hear him, there are many other people much wiser than I am and I am glad to be instructed, but if someone came and said "I have a revelation from God as to how you should live your life." Well, I would not care to listen because everything we need for proper instruction is found in the Scripture. I do not believe that anyone today can claim infallibility or say "I am speaking as though God Himself were speaking." Godly people may expound and explain what is in the Scriptures according to the knowledge given them, but it's still to be found there and we shouldn't be seeking elsewhere.
I guess I feel like Paul in 2 Cor 11 who says he had betrothed the Corinthians to one husband and yet they were seeking other things. Christ is called Logos, the eternal Word of God and He is made manifest in the Scriptures. I cannot get the idea out of my head that the Scriptures, as Christ's word, is a manifestation of Christ on earth, they represent Him in His absence. So if we betray the Scriptures and seek help elsewhere, are we not guilty? That's what I mean by that. If we want to know what God says on a matter, we should look to the Scriptures or to someone who can explain the Scriptures, not to someone who claims they have something better than the Scriptures or something the Scriptures don't contain. That is the reason that Mormons tell me the Book of Mormon was given, because the Scriptures were incomplete and needed something to supplement it. I strongly oppose that.
Again, I do believe that God can, and does work through what we perceive as miracles (though again, miracles just seem to us to be an act of God without ordinary means). My grandfather lived for four years after the doctors said he would die. A miracle? Yes! I know people who have had cancer and yet go in and one day it's no longer there. A miracle? Yes! I recall the incident you refer to LES, and while I was certainly skeptical (and always will be of such things) I certainly do not count it impossible. God still works in these "miraculous" ways, but do I believe that God has given the gift of healing to specific people? TV evangelists for example? No, I do not.
Does that make sense LES?
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As we learned in Narnia....
No, I also believe that God has revealed Himself in nature and has given us friendships to help us grow, what I'm talking about is actual verbal revelation. A "thus says the Lord," a command for the future. If a minister were to come to town with a good sermon, certainly I would go hear him, there are many other people much wiser than I am and I am glad to be instructed, but if someone came and said "I have a revelation from God as to how you should live your life." Well, I would not care to listen because everything we need for proper instruction is found in the Scripture. I do not believe that anyone today can claim infallibility or say "I am speaking as though God Himself were speaking." Godly people may expound and explain what is in the Scriptures according to the knowledge given them, but it's still to be found there and we shouldn't be seeking elsewhere.
I guess I feel like Paul in 2 Cor 11 who says he had betrothed the Corinthians to one husband and yet they were seeking other things. Christ is called Logos, the eternal Word of God and He is made manifest in the Scriptures. I cannot get the idea out of my head that the Scriptures, as Christ's word, is a manifestation of Christ on earth, they represent Him in His absence. So if we betray the Scriptures and seek help elsewhere, are we not guilty? That's what I mean by that. If we want to know what God says on a matter, we should look to the Scriptures or to someone who can explain the Scriptures, not to someone who claims they have something better than the Scriptures or something the Scriptures don't contain. That is the reason that Mormons tell me the Book of Mormon was given, because the Scriptures were incomplete and needed something to supplement it. I strongly oppose that.
Again, I do believe that God can, and does work through what we perceive as miracles (though again, miracles just seem to us to be an act of God without ordinary means). My grandfather lived for four years after the doctors said he would die. A miracle? Yes! I know people who have had cancer and yet go in and one day it's no longer there. A miracle? Yes! I recall the incident you refer to LES, and while I was certainly skeptical (and always will be of such things) I certainly do not count it impossible. God still works in these "miraculous" ways, but do I believe that God has given the gift of healing to specific people? TV evangelists for example? No, I do not.
Does that make sense LES?
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As we learned in Narnia....
Poster:
LES
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2007/05/29 12:56:52 PM
Thank you Logan -- dare I say that we agree ! Of course you said it much better and oh so well. Thank you for that post. I found it very very clear and helpful.
Do you remember how I used to always need you to remember my favorite Zelda game :) A Link to the Past and I finally got it straight -- well I think I am clear on this as well. Thanks for organizing my thoughts again !
I have always felt that Silas was right when he said that we met for a reason. You surely have had me
studying and reading the last 2 days. That has got to be a good thing.
I guess I do not have to hide in my chair after all :) I know the way I put things can -- well -- be a little frustrating to you. :) I really do try not to.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow
Do you remember how I used to always need you to remember my favorite Zelda game :) A Link to the Past and I finally got it straight -- well I think I am clear on this as well. Thanks for organizing my thoughts again !
I have always felt that Silas was right when he said that we met for a reason. You surely have had me
studying and reading the last 2 days. That has got to be a good thing.
I guess I do not have to hide in my chair after all :) I know the way I put things can -- well -- be a little frustrating to you. :) I really do try not to.
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Lead me Lord and I will follow